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Rank: Addict
Joined: 7/29/2006
Posts: 507
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Hi all,
Well i've pretty much hit a dead end here... upgrading my site to run under .Net 2 has broken it. Umbraco will not run under Medium Trust, and my hosting company (and it seems most other shared hosting companies) refuse to run sites on anything other than Medium Trust... their take is "get the developers to fix the application".
We really need a solution to this issue. If umbraco wont work under medium trust, that's going to disqualify ALOT of potential users who don't have dedicated servers that they can configure to their liking. I think this should be a VERY high priority for the Umbraco development team.
what are our options? i'm really stuck with this one too, and not sure how to move forward from here. some advice or direction from the core development team would be greatly apreciated... There's alot of people with this issue (reading through the forums), but no definitive responses from the team on how to get around this.
Please guys, help us out here. I'm after one of the following:
- 'we're working on fixing umbraco to run under medium trust'
- 'umbraco cannot possibly run under medium trust - here's some hosts that will work'
- 'disabling the following will make it work under medium trust' (the bug report suggestions didn't work for me).
Give us something... please....
Wishes he could work with Umbraco all the time.
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Rank: Umbracoholic
Joined: 9/8/2006
Posts: 1,698
Location: KY, USA
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Hi, Greg, I feel your pain! I have a solution for the USA. Just this evening I successfully installed Umbraco 2.1.4 and the website wizard at www.WebHost4Life.com. I have the Premium Plan ($19.95/month) but it looks as though the Advanced Plan ($9.95/month) would would just as well. You get Windows Server 2003, SQLserver 2005, 1 to 3 GB disk and database space, .NET 1.1 and 2.0, and all the other features you'd expect and some you wouldn't expect from a shared hosting service. You have complete control over IIS, DNS, and file permissions. I run .NET 2.0 so I added 'full control' for the NETSERVICE user and Umbraco is running perfectly. If you use .NET 1.1 you would give permissions to the ASPNET user instead. Their support is decent and the performance of their servers adequate for my needs. Hope this helps. cheers, doug.
MVP 2007-2009 - Official Umbraco Trainer for North America - Percipient Studios
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Rank: Addict
Joined: 7/29/2006
Posts: 507
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Hey Doug,
Thanks for that... so you have umbraco running under .Net 2? no hacks required (besides the enablevalidation key in web.config)? thats good news if it is the case.. are they running under medium trust, or full trust? I wonder what they've configured differently that it works... any ideas?
I looked at webhost4life last night... looks pretty good. Only problem is their reseller plans... $400 just to become a basic reseller is a little rich. :( or $1299 to become an advanced reseller, which basically allows you to divide an account and resell at your own price - this is what i need.
Interested to know more about the configuration, and if i can get it going on my current host with some advice, or another host with decent (affordable) reseller plans.
cheers
greg
Wishes he could work with Umbraco all the time.
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Rank: Umbracoholic
Joined: 9/8/2006
Posts: 1,698
Location: KY, USA
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Yes, I run all development and some live sites on .NET 2.0. I've had zero issues with Umbraco, using the general 2.1.4 release. I'm not a C# programmer so I don't bother with the source code. I use the plain, out-of-the-box Win2003 Server's IIS6 settings. The only thing I have to do is right-click the site's webroot folder in Windows Explorer and give ASPNET and/or NETSERVICE user full control of the files. Then I copy the Umbraco files, fire up IE and go to newsite.domain.com/install and everything goes as expected. No hacks of any kind. I don't even have an enablevalidation item in web.config, just the standard Umbraco-supplied web.config file, updated with my database and email server information. I even switch to .NET 1.1 sometimes, using IIS's control panel, when I want to double-check the tools I'm writing perform identically in both environments. Any issues I've had have switching back and forth between .NET version have been minor and easily resolved. Since I've done this on my desktop PC (WinXP pro), local development server (Win2003 Server), and www.webhost4life.com I think there is nothing special about my environment or the steps I'm taking during installation. Rather, I'm using the default IIS/.NET2.0 settings (Full Trust). I've never had a need to change it to High or Medium trust so I don't know what issues that might create, though your experience says Medium Trust is impossible. It would seem, then, that www.webhost4life.com provides Full trust (or at least High trust, I don't know how to check that). In any event, Umbraco runs fine with .NET 2.0 on their shared servers at a great price. cheers, doug.
MVP 2007-2009 - Official Umbraco Trainer for North America - Percipient Studios
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Rank: Addict
Joined: 3/17/2008
Posts: 953
Location: Nyborg, Denmark
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I was able to make umbraco run on asp.net 2.0 (the 2.0 is *crucial* when it comes to medium trust, it will *not* work on v1.1), but I would never recommend anyone to use umbraco with medium trust. As far as I've learned (I'd love if I learned wrong on this!), medium trust blocks some of the fundamental concepts in umbraco, like reflecting on foreign dlls. This is nessacery when installing packages among other things. As written in this comment, the Medium trust settings will limit: - Tidy html (not a problem in v3 as this isn't required to output strict html) - Package Import (that's final - no way to change that (other than installing packages in a non-medium trust environment before moving to production) - Scheduled Tasks (including automated publication) - Lucene Search (on non huge sites you can use Douglas Robars excellent xslt search) - TextGen (can be replaced using sfir or other technique) But this is what I found so far - I bet there's a lot more. But hurray - there's no need to run umbraco on medium trust, loads of ISP's supports high or full trust among others http://www.umbracohosting.com (which on sure is open to resellers as well), but several others have made suggestions. In another thread deployment genious Stewart Twynham states why more ISPs could support umbraco and still sleep well. Bottom line; if we were to support medium trust because some ISPs are ignorant and lacks knowledge of setting up decent .NET support on windows servers, it would have a severe impact on the possibilities in umbraco - so needless to say this won't happen (maybe I'm being just a little black/white here ;-)). I've done what I could to support medium trust in umbraco with my knowledge so far, and I've managed to run umbraco satisfying for sites with limited needs on medium trust and .NET 2.0. So the medium trust whores shouldn't be a result of ignorence from me and as said - I would love to be wrong on this. If you wanna have fun, choose a decent ISP (apparently they exists for even $9 / month) and stay away from those medium trusts - they'll give you headaches. Hope this helps! Niels...
Jeeeez, did I really start this :-)
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Rank: Addict
Joined: 7/29/2006
Posts: 507
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Niels Hartvig wrote:But hurray - there's no need to run umbraco on medium trust, loads of ISP's supports high or full trust among others http://www.umbracohosting.com (which on sure is open to resellers as well), but several others have made suggestions. UmbracoHosting would be great, but its just too expensive. I dont think i could break even with my current clients if i moved them all to one of those plans. :( Niels Hartvig wrote:Bottom line; if we were to support medium trust because some ISPs are ignorant and lacks knowledge of setting up decent .NET support on windows servers, it would have a severe impact on the possibilities in umbraco - so needless to say this won't happen (maybe I'm being just a little black/white here ;-)). Thats fair enough.. but i think it would be good for the community if somebody could compile a list of hosting providers that run in full trust, or at least a list of important questions to ask a provider before signing up. Niels Hartvig wrote:If you wanna have fun, choose a decent ISP (apparently they exists for even $9 / month) and stay away from those medium trusts - they'll give you headaches. Yes, i've learned that. Now to find a full trust ISP that offers a decent reseller plan and all othe other features i need. hmmmmmm. how frustrating, and time-consuming! :( I'll post my findings somewhere when i find a good one... for now i'm still hunting. Thanks for the info Niels. I understand the situation a little better now. cheers greg
Wishes he could work with Umbraco all the time.
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Rank: Addict
Joined: 7/29/2006
Posts: 507
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Just thought i'd post quickly, saying that there are indeed hosts that will run websites in high trust.. most require to know what it is for (pointing them to this thread should be sufficient), and a guarantee that there'll be 'no funny business'.
Be sure to ask the sales people if they can make an exception for you before writing off a potential host. If all else fails, there's the option to go for dedicated, or VPS solutions where you can configure the environment yourself.
Jeez, seems i'm becoming an expert at hosting options. how frustrating. LOL
good luck everyone,
greg
Wishes he could work with Umbraco all the time.
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Rank: Fanatic
Joined: 7/21/2006
Posts: 256
Location: Salerno - Italy
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I have the same problem on italian ISP Register.it :cry:
Red Consulting s.a.s - Umbraco from v1.0
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Rank: Fanatic
Joined: 7/20/2006
Posts: 256
Location: Boston, Massachusetts
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Hi Greg,
I'm in the same boat as you -- looking for .net 2.0 host with some reseller options for hosting some of my small freelance sites (i.e., low cost plans).
Did you give up completly on JodoHost? In my ideal world, I'd be able to host php/mysql/apache sites too.
Did you find any US options beyond webhost4life? I also think it would be great if there was a compilation of Umbraco hosting options on this site.
Thanks!
Tom
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Rank: Addict
Joined: 7/29/2006
Posts: 507
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Tom Holland wrote:
Hi Greg,
I'm in the same boat as you -- looking for .net 2.0 host with some reseller options for hosting some of my small freelance sites (i.e., low cost plans).
Did you give up completly on JodoHost? In my ideal world, I'd be able to host php/mysql/apache sites too.
Did you find any US options beyond webhost4life? I also think it would be great if there was a compilation of Umbraco hosting options on this site.
Thanks!
Tom
Yup gave up on JodoHost - they wouldn't run in high or full trust. I've gone with xHostSolutions - its an australian company, but they have servers in US and Singapore too. Good reseller plans, really friendly guys... its been a pleasure dealing with them. www.xhostsolutions.com.au not sure if they'll sign up international customers though... worth contacting them though. good luck greg
Wishes he could work with Umbraco all the time.
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Rank: Fanatic
Joined: 7/21/2006
Posts: 256
Location: Salerno - Italy
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I have found Italian ISP , Aruba, that give a Virtual Server for 10,00 euros/month... :D
Red Consulting s.a.s - Umbraco from v1.0
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Rank: Addict
Joined: 7/29/2006
Posts: 507
Location: Melbourne, Australia
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Ten Euros a month for a virtual server?? wow thats cheap... perhaps too cheap?
Wishes he could work with Umbraco all the time.
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Rank: Fanatic
Joined: 7/20/2006
Posts: 256
Location: Boston, Massachusetts
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Thanks for the recommendations.
Any others in the US would also be appreciated!
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Rank: Fanatic
Joined: 7/21/2006
Posts: 256
Location: Salerno - Italy
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Biagio wrote:
I have found Italian ISP , Aruba, that give a Virtual Server for 10,00 euros/month...
:D
but is too slow..also for control panel...
Red Consulting s.a.s - Umbraco from v1.0
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Rank: Newbie
Joined: 7/20/2006
Posts: 7
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If u need hosting. i would also recomend greatest croatian hosting 90€/year (biggest), 45€ year smallest (which is also great) [url]www.inside.hrPlesk control pannel (u can administer any windows permission to any folder, and u got scheduled tasks) Full trust SQL enterpise manager direct connection! I had never called for any problem! This is what i call "hosting provider".
http://www.doscoop.com
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Rank: Newbie
Joined: 12/7/2007
Posts: 1
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Niels Hartvig wrote:I was able to make umbraco run on asp.net 2.0 (the 2.0 is *crucial* when it comes to medium trust, it will *not* work on v1.1), but I would never recommend anyone to use umbraco with medium trust. As far as I've learned (I'd love if I learned wrong on this!), medium trust blocks some of the fundamental concepts in umbraco, like reflecting on foreign dlls. This is nessacery when installing packages among other things. As written in this comment, the Medium trust settings will limit: - Tidy html (not a problem in v3 as this isn't required to output strict html) - Package Import (that's final - no way to change that (other than installing packages in a non-medium trust environment before moving to production) - Scheduled Tasks (including automated publication) - Lucene Search (on non huge sites you can use Douglas Robars excellent xslt search) - TextGen (can be replaced using sfir or other technique) But this is what I found so far - I bet there's a lot more. But hurray - there's no need to run umbraco on medium trust, loads of ISP's supports high or full trust among others http://www.umbracohosting.com (which on sure is open to resellers as well), but several others have made suggestions. In another thread deployment genious Stewart Twynham states why more ISPs could support umbraco and still sleep well. Bottom line; if we were to support medium trust because some ISPs are ignorant and lacks knowledge of setting up decent .NET support on windows servers, it would have a severe impact on the possibilities in umbraco - so needless to say this won't happen (maybe I'm being just a little black/white here ;-)). I've done what I could to support medium trust in umbraco with my knowledge so far, and I've managed to run umbraco satisfying for sites with limited needs on medium trust and .NET 2.0. So the medium trust whores shouldn't be a result of ignorence from me and as said - I would love to be wrong on this. If you wanna have fun, choose a decent ISP (apparently they exists for even $9 / month) and stay away from those medium trusts - they'll give you headaches. Hope this helps! Niels... Hello Niels, I was very pleased to see your product and was investigating to integrate it with our hosting packages. But... then I found this post (I know it is not from yesterday :-) ). I share the feeling that a lot of hosters don't know what they are doing, but your statement about "medium trust ISPs" is at least a bit strange... My opinion it that if your hosting company is NOT hosting in MEDIUM trust (or a custom trust policy based on medium trust), stay away from it. I suggest to read this article from 4GuysFromRolla, read the conclusion: http://aspnet.4guysfromrolla.com/articles/100307-1.aspxAnd you ask yourself why hoster use Medium trust? Well, here you have the answer. You use the Network Service account in full control? Read this: http://blogs.msdn.com/anmolm/archive/2007/02/12/running-multiple-asp-net-applications-securely-on-a-single-web-server.aspxAnd DB_OWNER rights on the database? why... This is my opinion.
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Rank: Fanatic
Joined: 10/30/2007
Posts: 215
Location: Bellingham
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To all - There are more than a few .NET Security folks who say that if you're running your site at ANY of the default trust levels then you do not understand the security requirements of your app and need to consult a .NET security guide/expert/guru/shaman. *Disclaimer: I run most of my sites at the default Full Trust level. *I think their point is well taken in that the issue is not simply one of Full vs. Medium but of the ' appropriate' level for each app. While I don't have any pretense of being one of these .NET security experts I can say that I belive the 'appropriate' Trust level for an Umbraco site is somewhere between Medium and Full with that level differning somewhat based on the requirements of the particular implementation. Among the many items there are to complete sometime this decade I'd like to compile a sort of ' Umbraco security guideline matrix' which maps the various Umbraco features to the required security setting. This way, if a particular installation did not require a given feature the security dependencies for that feature could be enabled thereby moving the site toward Full trust. Anyone else with me on this or am I as off as I seem? -Paul
motusconnect.com :: level-2 certified :: MVP 2008/2009
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Rank: Newbie
Joined: 3/2/2008
Posts: 1
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I have tried running DotNetNuke on my shared host provider under medium permission, no problem. While I don't like DotNetNuke for a variety of reasons and have been looking for a way to run Umbraco instead, DNN is a sophisticated system (in the sense that it runs an entire CMS under Medium Trust).
It's probably unrealistic to think that there will be a general movement towards higher trust by hosting providers. There must be thousands (or many more!) who like me are deeply unsatisfied with DotNetNuke, but are unable to switch to Umbraco just because the cheap and competitive hosts don't support high trust!
My suggestions:
1) Create a version for medium trust. Otherwise it will never become as popular as it could! Seriously, this is the only reason I'm not running it, and I'm sure for many other people too.
2) At least have the installer load some basic interface with a preliminary test result, saying that it can't be installed. Then poor hopefuls won't have to spend the next 2 days trying to figure out what the problem is.
Regards
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