|
|
Rank: Fanatic
Joined: 7/19/2006
Posts: 492
Location: Göteborg, Sweden
|
Niels, don't get me wrong here, I'm not being sarcastic, just trying to clarify things to avoid that newcomers gets seconds thoughts about using umbraco as their primary business tool. If you read the Umbraco Trademark Guidelines blog post "like satan reads the bible" this might mean that only certified professional are allowed to produce Umbraco sites for payment from now on. Off course that isn't the case, that would kill the whole "anyone-can-and-may-use-it" spririt in the community, wouldn't it? The Official Umbraco Blog wrote:
[snip] ...This means that you may not...[snip]
[snip] ...use umbraco trademarks for promoting commercial services...[snip]
[snip] ...(or) For promoting yourself as an umbraco consultant or umbraco solution provider...[snip]
I get the point, but I'm not 100% sure everyone else does. Since the name is a trademark and writing a quote or presenting your business tools is "promoting" some people might get cold feet here... This subject needs to be discussed further to produce some kind of "best practice" regarding where and how the umbraco logo and name might be used and by whom... It might also be a good thing to add a (non bureaucratic) legal section under "documentation" on the umbraco website... // ; ) Kalle
" - Yeah I'd like to share your point of view, as long as it's my view too... ( http://www.d-a-d.dk/lyrics/pointofview)
|
|
Rank: Fanatic
Joined: 7/19/2006
Posts: 492
Location: Göteborg, Sweden
|
BTW, I tried to add a comment (twice) in the blog post but it never showed up, are there any problems with the comment feature or are they not being publish at once any more? // ;) Kalle
" - Yeah I'd like to share your point of view, as long as it's my view too... ( http://www.d-a-d.dk/lyrics/pointofview)
|
|
Rank: Addict
Joined: 3/17/2008
Posts: 953
Location: Nyborg, Denmark
|
There's still the term "fair use", and it goes for umbraco as well so of course you're allowed to use the name "umbraco" in a quote :-)
Using the logo is not allowed unless certified or given special permission.
The comment was identified as spam, but if approved it now. Comments - as told when you leave a comment - might get identified as spam as the filter is still learning. The umbraco.org site gets absolutely hammered with spam robots, so the filter needs to be very strict.
Hope this helps :-)
Cheers,
Niels...
Jeeeez, did I really start this :-)
|
|
Rank: Umbracoholic
Joined: 9/8/2006
Posts: 1,698
Location: KY, USA
|
I'll give a shot at clarifying. Niels, please correct anything that is not true. The goal here (as I understand it) is to protect the trademark that is "umbraco" from being diluted and meaningless and no longer a trademark. It is not to stop people from using umbraco, building sites, making changes/additions/packages, etc. I'm part of the package repository team, so let me use a fictitious example of what would and wouldn't be approved. Suppose a brilliant new package were submitted that did something everyone wanted. This package had everything a package should have and worked flawlessly. What should this package be called? TRADEMARK EXAMPLESUmbracoWidget <-- trademark violationUmbraco Widget <-- trademark violationumbWidget <-- you're really trying to get around this, aren't you?Widget for Umbraco <-- Not a violationWidget <-- Best choice!This has nothing to do with the actual content of the package, simply its name. That is where the trademark comes in. You see, a trademark is a proper noun, not an adjective. It should not be combined with other terms into a compound word or a phrase in which umbraco is not used as a proper noun. When you have a name like "Widget for Umbraco", Umbraco is being used as a proper noun, which is trademarked in-and-of-iteslf. Similarly, "Widget" is also being used as a noun and can be trademarked. But the entire phrase is NOT trademarked, nor is it trademark-able. Think about where you'd put the little "TM" symbol in the name. Including trademark symbols with the examples above yields: UmbracoWidget(TM) <-- can't combine one trademark inside anotherUmbraco(TM) Widget(TM) <-- can't use a trademark as an adjectiveumbWidget(TM) <-- umb is an abbreviation for umbraco; don't go thereWidget(TM) for Umbraco(TM) <-- widget is trademarked, and references a trademarked productWidget(TM) <-- perfect!LOGOThe orange circle with the ~U~ in it is also a trademark and you can't go putting it all over the place either. But if you get approval, you can use it. FAIR USEObviously, you can refer to umbraco in your writing. Including a screenshot in your blog's review of umbraco is also fine. HOWEVER...If you get written approval from umbraco I/S (that is, the company), you can use any name you like. But you need the approval first. I think Niels has been very lenient in the past with folks using the umbraco name and/or logo. That wasn't a great idea. Not only is it confusing to know if something is an "official" umbraco widget, but to continue allowing it would eventually nullify his trademarks. I see three reasons to respect the umbraco trademarks that are to OUR advantage: 1. I can trademark my own names, which isn't possible if I'm infringing on another's trademark. 2. I make clear what is MY work by not confusing people with the umbraco name. 3. I support the umbraco community and the umbraco product that I love by not using the umbraco trademarks as my own, which would eventually destroy the product and the community if the trademarks were no longer legally valid. I hope this discussion is helpful. I'm certainly not speaking for Niels, but I believe this is accurate (at least according to US trademark law). Corrections, additions, and clarifications warmly encouraged! cheers, doug. 2.
MVP 2007-2009 - Official Umbraco Trainer for North America - Percipient Studios
|
|
Rank: Umbracoholic
Joined: 9/8/2006
Posts: 1,698
Location: KY, USA
|
Looks like Niels chimed in while I was writing. :) cheers, doug.
MVP 2007-2009 - Official Umbraco Trainer for North America - Percipient Studios
|
|
Rank: Fanatic
Joined: 10/9/2006
Posts: 420
|
@Doug... great post as per usual :) here is a question... i made a blog post on my personal site saying how wonderful umbraco is... actually, i think the title was 'everyone should get an umbraco' and in my little blog posts i like to put little icons/images and i put an umbraco logo in there... NH, am I in violation... because i don't want to be... not that my blog get's any hits... but i wanted to promot the name, company and link to anyone that would listen... i feel like this is cool, but i just want to make sure. thx bob
bootnumlock - aka bob baty-barr [ http://www.baty-barr.com] Level 1 Certified!
|
|
Rank: Umbracoholic
Joined: 9/8/2006
Posts: 1,698
Location: KY, USA
|
@Bob -- as I understand it, you can use the trademarked logo and name, screenshots, etc. in a review, article, etc. You are not claiming any of the trademarked items as your own. Or, put another way, you're giving credit where the credit is due. (yes, that is a very crude rule of thumb). As always, please correct me if I'm mistaken about any of this or if DK rules are different than (my understanding of) US rules regarding trademarks and fair use. cheers, doug.
MVP 2007-2009 - Official Umbraco Trainer for North America - Percipient Studios
|
|
Rank: Fanatic
Joined: 7/25/2006
Posts: 424
Location: Silkeborg, Denmark
|
Niels, you might want to run through the comments once more. I'm pretty sure I left one a couple a days ago that's not showing up either. /SoerenS
Brug for råd til hvordan du driver en god webshop? / Need advice on how to run an effective webshop?
|
|
Rank: Aficionado
Joined: 8/12/2006
Posts: 136
Location: Norway
|
Excellent post Doug!
Kenneth Solberg - xeed* - core dev - level 2 cert pro - my blog
|
|
Rank: Fanatic
Joined: 7/19/2006
Posts: 492
Location: Göteborg, Sweden
|
@Douglas, great explanation. Good with the examples you provided. @Niels, that's good for everyone to hear, and like doug said, of course you've got to protect your brand, after all the name and it's abilities is what you've struggled hard for since 2003 right? About the spam filter; guess I should be a more frequent commenter to avoid being labeled spammer in the future then ;) Something like doug's examples could/should be a permanent part of the umbraco.org site. Any plans for introducing a "Umbraco Certified Solution Provider" logotype as well? That would have been a neat footer for every MVP, especially if it's linked (with a certificate number) to a verification page in the umbraco site. // ; ) Kalle
" - Yeah I'd like to share your point of view, as long as it's my view too... ( http://www.d-a-d.dk/lyrics/pointofview)
|
|
Rank: Fanatic
Joined: 10/30/2007
Posts: 215
Location: Bellingham
|
Well done all, thanks! Glad I could be of assitance in getting this thread started - and clarified by Niels and Doug - by stepping on the Umbraco trademark. Strictly an oversight on my part that has been corrected. I too want to promote Umbraco to as wide an audience as possible and that was my motivation - not that it matters. Looking forward to meeting Niels and Per next week at the training event. Thanks, -Paul
motusconnect.com :: level-2 certified :: MVP 2008/2009
|
|
Rank: Addict
Joined: 3/17/2008
Posts: 953
Location: Nyborg, Denmark
|
@Doug: In my next life I want to be able to formulate like you do :-)
@Paul: How could you know - thanks for starting this and looking forward to see you too :)
/n
Jeeeez, did I really start this :-)
|
|
Rank: Addict
Joined: 7/19/2006
Posts: 597
Location: Bad Homburg, Germany
|
Ok, as I understand right a tool named TH.Umbraco.Utilities is in principle a trademark violation (no way I can change this in TH's Utilities for Umbraco). But I am confused about the phrase "in any commercial product names or logos". So what is a commercial product? Is it ok to use "Umbraco Utilities" if it is an project running under the gpl on codeplex?? So what is the definition of commercial? Just want to clarify, no way I am going to rename my projects. Also I want to open my dev and share the utilites on codeplex. Thomas
• 2007/2008 MVP • www.thoehler.com • Bad Homburg, Germany
|
|
Rank: Addict
Joined: 3/17/2008
Posts: 953
Location: Nyborg, Denmark
|
In general you may not use "umbraco" in any name no matter the distribution form or the license provided, unless permission given - no matter if the project is open source or not.
For open source projects you're welcome to add something like "for umbraco" as a project tagline, like "TH Utilities for umbraco".
Hope this helps!
/n
Jeeeez, did I really start this :-)
|
|
Rank: Fanatic
Joined: 3/19/2008
Posts: 219
Location: London, UK
|
Niels: So from what you are saying, if ever I were to re-instate Umbraco Backup (which is possible as it works well with 3.x) - I'd need to rename it? From what you are saying, 'Backup for Umbraco' wouldn't be acceptable as it is/was a commercial product. Essentially, I would need to apply for permission, otherwise my commercial add-on wouldn't be marketable. I can't really imagine a product called 'Backup for an Open source .net CMS that begins with a U' as selling very well :)
Darren Ferguson - Umbraco level 2 certified www.darren-ferguson.com - www.fergusonmoriyama.com
|
|
Rank: Fanatic
Joined: 10/30/2007
Posts: 215
Location: Bellingham
|
Darren - As one whose been on both sides of the trademark line I believe that "Backup for Umbraco" is an acceptable name for your commercial product - according to the Umbraco I/S folks this is fine (I just asked.) I think the general rule is that 'complimentary' products (open-source or commercial) can use the name 'Umbraco' if it's descriptive as yours is. It's really the 'appearance' of officialdom (sorry!) that the trademark is intended to prevent. Since this is clearly not your intent it is allowed. I've personally spent a fair amount of time with this topic (I have a project named "Commerce for Umbraco') and so have asked the question several times. Will you be at CodeGarden08? -Paul
motusconnect.com :: level-2 certified :: MVP 2008/2009
|
|
|
Guest |