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Rank: Newbie
Joined: 4/29/2008
Posts: 10
Location: aust
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It really is a terrible shame that such a nice bit of software is let down with lousy documentation. I thought the days of open source being associated with lousy help were over. It wouldn't be so bad if the advanced stuff was a bit lacking, but appears that the Umbraco folk just don't want anyone to even get started.
For me, it was over a week to figure out the (retrospectively easy) complex bits that go togther to make even the simplest of web pages. The person who suggested I take a look at Umraco said he was nearly a month just getting to grips with what most other CMS's took literally minutes to figure out.
For example, the two remotely useful getting started "books" (please, they're barely even articles) are incomplete. It seems even teh forums are relative quite on the topic of how to actually do something simple with Umbraco.
I can't help but feel Umbraco was possibly the right choice for many organisations, but they simply didn't get chance to play random guessing games long enough to realise it.
Was there an actual question in with all this grumbling? Yes, how do I get started? (or was that not the right way to go about asking I wonder?)
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Rank: Umbracoholic
Joined: 9/8/2006
Posts: 1,698
Location: KY, USA
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To answer your last question first... no, that's probably not the kind of introduction that's going to elicit the kindest or fullest response. You don't need to stroke any egos or hid your frustration, but politeness rather than unproductive grumbling would go a long way. As to "how to get started".... you said you'd already figured some things out. So my question to you is, what are you having a hard time with? Being specific about what you're trying to do would also help. cheers, doug.
MVP 2007-2009 - Official Umbraco Trainer for North America - Percipient Studios
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Rank: Fanatic
Joined: 7/20/2006
Posts: 408
Location: Amsterdam
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Good thing is that the lazy people stay away from Umbraco ;)
Nah i must say that lack of "structurised" Documentation is a little bit a barrier.
On the other hand, writing good documenation is very time consuming.
Only thing i can say is that:
A) Beginner questions are answered very fast on those forums
B) Use google to find answers to your questions
C) Learning Umbraco goes fastest by playing around with existing stuff, IE the website package
D) Its open Source, use your expierences to make the product better, IE by writing Wiki's, Blogs, ScreenCasts, etc.
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Rank: Newbie
Joined: 4/29/2008
Posts: 10
Location: aust
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re: As to "how to get started".... you said you'd already figured some things out. So my question to you is, what are you having a hard time with?
I'm actually fine now, and realise that with Umraco you really need to be part of teh community to get anywhere with it. But a I say, a shame it has to be this way as most other open source projects these days tend to have enough documenation to get a person started. Umraco is lacking here and I'm sure it must "keep the lazy people away". Eg; the beginners, those that want something akin to a getting started guide, and those others that woudl judge the quality of the product based on its quality and lack of even basic documenatation.
As I say, it's just a crying shame as Umraco is actually very good. Too bad that so many peole must get fustrated with ot and move on..
Yes - it will keep the lazy people away. But many other types too...
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Rank: Addict
Joined: 3/17/2008
Posts: 953
Location: Nyborg, Denmark
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Campo - walk the talk. Go create the perfect starter tutorial that you were missing now that you're actually fine: http://umbraco.org/documentation/books/createBookCheers, Niels / umbraco
Jeeeez, did I really start this :-)
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Rank: Newbie
Joined: 4/29/2008
Posts: 10
Location: aust
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Re: Campo - walk the talk. Go create the perfect starter tutorial that you were missing now that you're actually fine:
I might just do that!
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Rank: Addict
Joined: 3/17/2008
Posts: 953
Location: Nyborg, Denmark
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That would be awesome!
Jeeeez, did I really start this :-)
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Rank: Addict
Joined: 7/19/2006
Posts: 649
Location: Preston, UK
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Guys,
Without sounding patronizing or offending anyone, Umbraco like everything else in the world has a learning curve. Those of us who drive we did'nt just wake up one morning get into a car and start driving! Maybe its a misunderstanding that becuase Umbraco is opensource there is no learning curve I don't know?
As a quick start to get upto speed in a minimum amount of time i would recommend:
1. install umbraco via the guides on the umbraco website in documentation section.
2. install the excellent website starter kit put together by Warren
3. go through the wizard to understand the concepts
4. if possible get yourself onto the level1 course
5. use the forums
I think some people are put of a bit too quickly persevre it will pay off!
Before coming to Umbraco I tried typo3, plone, opencms, DNN they were no way as easy to use as Umbraco.
My 5pence worth!
Regards
Ismail
Level 2 certified. If it aint broke dont fix.
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Rank: Addict
Joined: 3/17/2008
Posts: 953
Location: Nyborg, Denmark
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It's still a fair argument that it would be nice if there was more training material. Per and I got a subscription based online video training area in the pipeline and that will help a lot (though cost you a few pennies - we can't give everything away).
Jeeeez, did I really start this :-)
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Rank: Fanatic
Joined: 8/9/2007
Posts: 284
Location: Kentucky, USA
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I agree that the documentation is lacking -- that's always been my biggest gripe. However, I have come to realize that a dedicated, helpful, and responsive community of enthusiasts is eminently more valuable than terrific documentation -- and umbraco certainly has that. I have asked a lot of newbie questions here, many of which have been asked and answered before. But I have always gotten a helpful, patient, and pleasant response. That's worth a lot, and is one of the main reasons I have become an umbraco enthusiast myself.
Pete Koutoulas • Fayette County Public Schools • Lexington, Kentucky
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Rank: Newbie
Joined: 4/29/2008
Posts: 10
Location: aust
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I'm feeling more positive now - I've had time for some hands on and find umbraco to be a very starightforward tool. However, you can't move forward until those very basics are firmed up in teh mind, adn it was this that was missing.
On the downside though, a lot of what is on this site is of poor quality. The grammar is terrible, the approach to technical writing is fundamentally poor, and generally speaking it gives a very sloppy impression of the tool.
However, I'm inspired by the tool, and have grand plans to help in this regard where possible (artciles, books, external website etc)
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Rank: Newbie
Joined: 4/29/2008
Posts: 10
Location: aust
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...and yes, I will check my own spelling and grammar before submitting anything!
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Rank: Fanatic
Joined: 9/17/2007
Posts: 264
Location: London, UK.
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When I first started using Umbraco, it was an absolute 190% nightmare to get started with. Luckily, I am a Google champion and as mentioned above, the community - particularly the forums - sparkles. The more I use Umbraco, the more I love it. 'Pleasure is often accompanied by pain' goes the saying, however.
A search through the forums here will show you that I am currently putting together my own docs site. Say what you will regarding the way I set about that but one thing is abundantly clear - Umbraco needs documenting above and way beyond current efforts. I'm stepping up to the challenge and appreciate any help anyone can give me.
Richard
2 * 3 * 3 * 37 : The prime factorisation of The Beast.
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Rank: Fanatic
Joined: 7/22/2006
Posts: 255
Location: Randers, Denmark
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campo: For newcomers I'd definitely recommend the books section. If you spend enough time in there, you'll be able to learn a few tricks. Also, install one of the standard templates which can be installed from the Umbraco Package Repository. Change these a bit, and see what happens. Around christmas last year, Niels Hartvig (the founding father ;)) wrote some excellent tutorials on the official Umbraco blog. Unfortunately he never finished. But the golden lines are here: http://umbraco.org/blog?filterBy=christmasWhen you feel confident enough to start using the API, www.umbraco.org/apidocs is your helping hand. Some classes/methods are poorly documented, but here I suggest you download the sourcecode for Umbraco from Codeplex, then pinpoint the methods you plan to use in your extension and start digging through the sourcecode. Yes the documentation area needs some care. The community really needs people who are willing to make an effort in this field. But currently I think most of us are either designers or programmers. We need someone who is keen on writing with technical insight that I am sure, will give the best result
Best Regards Simon Simm.dk - My base on the web - proud Umbracian since 2.0 Beta
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Rank: Newbie
Joined: 12/25/2007
Posts: 24
Location: Belgium
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Simm wrote:The community really needs people who are willing to make an effort in this field. But currently I think most of us are either designers or programmers. We need someone who is keen on writing with technical insight that I am sure, will give the best result I am currently working on my first real website based on Umbraco so I personally suffered the pains of it's rather steep learning curve :) Actually not so much the learning curve (there is loads of info on xslt, .net usercontrols, ...) but more with some of the limitations of TinyMCE :D (I don't really like it, but the could just be me...). Anyways, I'm not a coding wizard at all but seeing that I'm an engineer I'm usually quick to pick up on things and how stuff works so I would be more than willing to make some serious contributions in documenting Umbraco. The thing holding me back a bit is that I don't know where to start really... An undertaking like that should be coordinated quite a bit... What kind of topics should be tackled first?
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Rank: Umbracoholic
Joined: 9/8/2006
Posts: 1,698
Location: KY, USA
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Kris Janssen wrote:...I would be more than willing to make some serious contributions in documenting Umbraco. The thing holding me back a bit is that I don't know where to start really... An undertaking like that should be coordinated quite a bit... What kind of topics should be tackled first? Well, Kris, you may have hit the nail on the head there! We all want good documentation. I've written some of the umbraco books and I now how long it can take to write, edit, proofread, and publish a book (not to mention keep up to date). I think what we've all been waiting for is someone to just take care of it for us, for someone to step up and say, "I know how to do documentation... and I want to help!" Quality documentation takes more than good intention or brains or knowledge of grammar. It takes a coordinated and on-going effort. It also takes a team, because no one could do it alone. So let's move the conversation on this thread in a slightly different direction to see if we can make all our good intentions a reality. Leave a note in this thread if you would be willing to write documentation, willing to review documentation written by someone else (mostly for proper English, grammar, and spelling), and/or willing to help coordinate the activities of writers and reviewers.Who's interested in helping "the next guy" by working on some core documentation? This isn't a commitment yet, but if we can get a team together we can resolve the long-standing documentation issue! For now, let's get a list of people who are interested. Let me be the first to put my name down: Douglas Robar [writing, reviewing, coordinating] Since you mentioned it, Kris, can we count on you for some writing? cheers, doug.
MVP 2007-2009 - Official Umbraco Trainer for North America - Percipient Studios
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Rank: Newbie
Joined: 12/25/2007
Posts: 24
Location: Belgium
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drobar wrote:Leave a note in this thread if you would be willing to write documentation, willing to review documentation written by someone else (mostly for proper English, grammar, and spelling), and/or willing to help coordinate the activities of writers and reviewers.
Let me be the first to put my name down:
...
Douglas Robar [writing, reviewing, coordinating] Kris Janssen [writing, reviewing (when I am not so new with Umbraco maybe :) ] Regarding the coordination part; I saw the 'book' system on the main website but maybe some sort of wiki system would be more suited? But then again, how would this fit with the apparent plan to make some sort of subscription service surrounding Umbraco documentation (I read a thing or two about this here and there)? Anyway, I am available to be put to use :) just let me know!
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Rank: Umbracoholic
Joined: 9/8/2006
Posts: 1,698
Location: KY, USA
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That's another great question, Kris! There is certainly plenty to do, but with limited resources we would want to be careful not to duplicate efforts. I'll certainly talk to Niels and Per at CodeGarden, if not before then. cheers, and thanks for being willing to help! doug.
MVP 2007-2009 - Official Umbraco Trainer for North America - Percipient Studios
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Rank: Addict
Joined: 3/17/2008
Posts: 953
Location: Nyborg, Denmark
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Let's make docs a hot topic for the MVP/Core retreat weekend before codegarden. That way we could present a plan at codegarden and get community feedback, before we see more of these: http://forum.umbraco.org/yaf_postst4821_Umbraco-Docs--Putting-Money-Where-My-Mouth-Is.aspx/n
Jeeeez, did I really start this :-)
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Rank: Fanatic
Joined: 8/9/2007
Posts: 284
Location: Kentucky, USA
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I'm game. Pete Koutoulas [writing, reviewing] I'm pretty good at both, although my umbraco chops probably put me somewhere between "beginner" and "intermediate". So I could write about basic stuff, but would be willing to work on only reviewing more advanced topics. Thanks for taking this bull by the horns, Doug.
Pete Koutoulas • Fayette County Public Schools • Lexington, Kentucky
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