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Rank: Umbracoholic
Joined: 9/8/2006
Posts: 1,698
Location: KY, USA
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Sometimes the community interest is already present and it just takes some talking about it to get things started :o) I certainly don't need to lead the charge, so if anyone else wants to help with coordinating that would be great.
MVP 2007-2009 - Official Umbraco Trainer for North America - Percipient Studios
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Rank: Fanatic
Joined: 8/9/2007
Posts: 284
Location: Kentucky, USA
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Doug, I think someone with moderator superpowers should move the parts of this thread dealing with the documentation project to a new thread. "Crying shame" just doesn't do justice to this discussion.
Pete Koutoulas • Fayette County Public Schools • Lexington, Kentucky
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Rank: Fanatic
Joined: 11/24/2006
Posts: 322
Location: Stockholm, Sweden
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I'm a bit ashamed to bring forward this posting from the deep dungeons, but I do it anyway. :-) I think I felt the same frustration when I wrote the above posting back in 2006. I tried and tried and tried and nothing worked and there was nowhere to turn and nobody would answer my posts and so on. It was total dispair and I just felt supid. But I'm still here! And Umbraco has really grown on me - it's always my first choice of CMS, if I get to choose. Once I understood the basic principles of how sites are structured in Umbraco, how pages are built up of document types, page templates, CSS and XSLT it was all so easy! And all of a sudden things that would require hours of coding before was now done in minutes. And yes - I blush a bit when I read my old posting because now I know that it's not true. You're never left on your own in this forum. :-) /Thomas
Web Developer at Kärnhuset - http://www.karnhuset.net - Stockholm, Sweden
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Rank: Newbie
Joined: 4/29/2008
Posts: 10
Location: aust
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re: "Crying shame" just doesn't do justice to this discussion.
The subject was merely the way I was feeling at the time. Actually, I stand by it, as it simply is a crying shame the way that the software has been let down in this regard. Surely this must have accounted for large losses in the number of uptakers and amount of mndshare that this CMS otherwise could have acheived. It's a crying shame indeed.
This thread developed a general response of "stop the crying, and act". And thats a fantastic attitude and a positive sign. Its really just a case of somebody taking the lead and organising things. And the need for a process to put in place (style guide, review system etc).
I have professionally published (online), edited, proof read and otherwise been involved with technical writing and adult learning (for Macromedia, Sitepoint.com and others). Mostly for extra cash and credibility as sole trader / contractor. So I feel I may have something to offer where time allows me to give the proper attention to such undertakings.
As indicated by the other poster - could we get a post going called something like "Documentation committee - Volunteers Needed" or some other wording that suggest the organisation of a better approach to documenting Umbraco?
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Rank: Fanatic
Joined: 8/9/2007
Posts: 284
Location: Kentucky, USA
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Campo, I didn't mean to disparage your choice to name this thread. I just meant that the direction of the thread had changed and the title did not reflect that. Didn't mean to offend.
Pete Koutoulas • Fayette County Public Schools • Lexington, Kentucky
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Rank: Newbie
Joined: 12/25/2007
Posts: 24
Location: Belgium
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drobar wrote:That's another great question, Kris! There is certainly plenty to do, but with limited resources we would want to be careful not to duplicate efforts. I'll certainly talk to Niels and Per at CodeGarden, if not before then.
cheers, and thanks for being willing to help!
doug. Ok, keep me informed! :)
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Rank: Newbie
Joined: 4/29/2008
Posts: 10
Location: aust
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re: Campo, I didn't mean to disparage your choice to name this thread.
No offence taken - and I didn't mean to suggest you were somehow disparaging :) I probably should have made that response stand alone and not a response to yours specifically!
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Rank: Addict
Joined: 9/27/2007
Posts: 977
Location: Belgium
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I'm too interested in helping creating some useful documentation, so I may even offer some help in writing some docs on umbraco. If you need some extra hands, let me know... Background: currently level 1 certified, so I know the basics and have some intermediate knowledge, but I'm certainly no expert. Greetz, /Dirk
level 1 certified - umbraco blog at netaddicts.be - working on an integrated forum4umbraco
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Rank: Umbracoholic
Joined: 9/8/2006
Posts: 1,698
Location: KY, USA
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Thanks, Dirk! I think there's probably a common belief that you have to be some kind of umbraco guru to write documentation. Sure, it helps to know what you're writing about :) but there is also a great deal that people who are new to umbraco can help with. A competent editor can help you clarify areas and let you know where more research might be needed. But, honestly, if you were to write 2 pages on how to make a "Hello, World!" xslt macro... you could do that. You don't have to write the definitive tome on all aspects of macros. Just pieces here and there. Getting a sense of what could and should be written will be part of the conversation with the core team and mvps prior to CodeGarden, as Niels said. This process will take some planning, coordination, and *most especially* teamwork with many people contributing. The benefit to each of us is that when we can write down the steps of a process to teach someone else, we've really and truly learned that process. Each person who contributes will become a stronger and more knowledgeable umbraco user. And every new user who reads that documentation will be saved much frustration and have an easier time learning and using umbraco. cheers, doug.
MVP 2007-2009 - Official Umbraco Trainer for North America - Percipient Studios
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Rank: Addict
Joined: 9/27/2007
Posts: 977
Location: Belgium
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Yes Doug, I totally agree. I'll be watching the forum closely and looking forward to hearing whatever is decided and communicated in this forum. Greetz, /Dirk
level 1 certified - umbraco blog at netaddicts.be - working on an integrated forum4umbraco
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Rank: Addict
Joined: 7/19/2006
Posts: 791
Location: Århus, Denmark
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I would also be willing to help out writing some stuff, but as you mention Doug, it would be nice to know what kind of material people are wanting. If there was a list of "please write these tutorials" it would be easier to get started. Especially if those tutorial subjects are relatively narrow, and could be covered in a small screencast or a few pages of writing.
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Rank: Fanatic
Joined: 8/9/2007
Posts: 284
Location: Kentucky, USA
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My suggestion to Doug and others who might be involved in coordinating this would be to basically write out an exhaustive table of contents. List every major topic and subtopic (and maybe even sub-subtopic) that should be included in a comprehensive guide. Once this has been generated, allow time for comments from the community. Once the contents are nailed down, let folks sign up to write pieces they are comfortable with. Finally, an editor or team of editors would put it all together into something that -- after another round of reviews from the community at large -- could be published online and maybe even in print. Come to think of it, that would be a great way to generate some revenue and further the "cause."
Pete Koutoulas • Fayette County Public Schools • Lexington, Kentucky
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Rank: Newbie
Joined: 4/29/2008
Posts: 10
Location: aust
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re: it would be nice to know what kind of material people are wanting.
I agree wholeheartedly with pkoutol in that there needs to be a high level mapping of wht needs to be done - eg; table of contents. And it would be great to see cross referenceing that TOC with "How I do x y z?" and "more information" (possibly going to an advanced section).
The other things is that there are the docs, but then there are articles. The articles would be more encompassing and perhaps assume a person had become familiar with the docs. I'd suggest that any efforts made here would be initially focused on the docs. Artciles could maintained, managed etc outside of this process...just a thought as I think there'd need to be a farily focused effort on actual docs.
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Rank: Newbie
Joined: 12/25/2007
Posts: 24
Location: Belgium
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campo wrote:re: it would be nice to know what kind of material people are wanting.
I agree wholeheartedly with pkoutol in that there needs to be a high level mapping of wht needs to be done - eg; table of contents. And it would be great to see cross referenceing that TOC with "How I do x y z?" and "more information" (possibly going to an advanced section).
I personally like this (something similar would be a good start): Wikibooks/UmbracoLet's see what happens... :)
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Rank: Addict
Joined: 3/17/2008
Posts: 953
Location: Nyborg, Denmark
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Very good discussion and ambitious. I like it and hope someone will take the lead.
We're going to improve the books section, where we'll turn each book into a wiki. That way we'll have BOTH a wiki AND structure AND search (the search on wikibooks searches everything on wikibooks - smart, right :-/)
Jeeeez, did I really start this :-)
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Rank: Addict
Joined: 9/27/2007
Posts: 977
Location: Belgium
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Ambitious it is, but I guess you guys (core/...) should first decide on how to set things up. I've think Doug would like to discuss this first with you guys, to see how things can be done efficiently. I would like to see a new section (Documentation - Ideas) in this forum where people could post 'what/how/who' stuff? Greetz, /Dirk
level 1 certified - umbraco blog at netaddicts.be - working on an integrated forum4umbraco
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Rank: Newbie
Joined: 4/29/2008
Posts: 10
Location: aust
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RE: I would like to see a new section (Documentation - Ideas) in this forum where people could post 'what/how/who' stuff?
That woudl be fanstastic.
I'm going to go a tad OT here - but a related issue is that the actual copy (content!) on the Umraco website is poorly written. That is to say, it is painfuly clear that it was written by a person whose first language was not English. Aside from multipel grammatcal error, there are aslo cultural oddites that make it read a little 'odd'.
This only matter when coming from a simialr angle as I was with Docs. It has to do with teh impression, hence adoption, of the software.
Ironically, the only area where Umraco is let down is Content! Too busy writing the software that manages content ! There aso needs to be, I feel, an effort to have the website content edited and corrected.
So I wonder if that new forum section could perhaps be called "Content Development"? Sub sections may be 'articles', 'documentation', 'authors' (info on style guides, processes etc) and anything and everything else relating to the content that represents Umraco.
I'll keep my eye on this thread as really keen to get active and contribute!
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Rank: Devotee
Joined: 5/22/2008
Posts: 67
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
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Just adding my name to the list for reviewing/creating documentation. I've been asked to write some documentation for the company I'm creating the site for. I think it's going to essentially be a manual for how to use the CMS from the end users perspective (not so much a developer's perspective). I'd be happy to edit and submit what I write for review by others so that some kind of manual/tutorial could be created for end users.
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Rank: Enthusiast
Joined: 1/10/2008
Posts: 25
Location: Nottingham, UK
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Good evening, Six months ago I was a n00b with Umbraco, but with the help of the forum, the "books" and some Googling, managed to set up about six sites running off one server. Inspired by the power of Umbraco, I created a Wiki for n00bs, but sadly got distracted! The original plan was to update the v2x manual to v3x and sort out all the typos/translation errors. I am literate and would love to write or proofread any new articles on how to get started or use Umbraco. The wiki is at www.fcswebsites.co.uk/wiki - feel free to pile in and contribute :)
Nottingham web design and green hosting - FCS Websites Umbraco documentation wiki - Come and join in!
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Rank: Newbie
Joined: 8/21/2007
Posts: 16
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Willing to help anyway that I can. Please send me an email at rustyzarse %at% yahoo *dot* com, if you would me to review documentation[/b] or if you think I could[b] prepare some, as I do not check the forums too regularly.
To respond to this thread without reading 50 pages of dialog: I, too, struggled with Umbraco at first. It is an excellent Cms and on par with some incredibly expensive alternatives. Since the source code is included with the low price of free, I have been able to adapt it to my needs and learn how things work when documentation is short. The best documentation in the world is souce code, after all. Use it.
I am here today because I wish to link directly to the edit url for a page and don't know if that is possible. I have been searching for 45 minutes and still no answer so I will post to the forum (in another thread, as is appropriate).
Open source is all about community. Its all about sharing. If you want robust documentation, you should pay for a commercial, closed source product. why? because much worse than no documentation is wrong documentation. I would rather have the problems fixed and features enhanced than to have documentation that explains how to use the system as it is today. Documentation is just as costly as code and should be treated like a maintenance feature and considered carefully. Umbraco has an appropriate amount of documentation to get you started and a community that is honest, respectful and talented who are more than happy to answer the most technical of questions for no charge. Always be considerate of that...
thanks
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