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Rank: Devotee
Joined: 8/9/2008
Posts: 66
Location: Houston, Texas
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We are currently starting up a new project called Forum4Umbraco which would be focused on bringing a community based forum that can be fully integrated into Umbraco. We are currently now in the design phase of development. If you would like to contribute and be part of this project please feel free to contact Dirk, Richard, or myself. At this time, our focus will be developing this product to integrate with Umbraco v4.0. Currently we have established our project on Codeplex if you would like to find us - at http://www.codeplex.com/forum4umbracoThank you The Forum4Umbraco Team
Billy Koch http://www.twitter.com/billy_koch
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Rank: Umbracoholic
Joined: 3/17/2008
Posts: 1,192
Location: Nyborg, Denmark
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First of all one word - fantastic.
Then here's my 0.02$;
- first of all go google - release often and iterate. You don't have anything until you shipped, so don't make a massive list of features, but instead ship and get feedback. A forum doesn't really need a lot of features (at least not a generic one). The second biggest problem with most forums is that they're bloated, the biggest problem is the next bullet below
- Make separation of logic and presentation a #1 feature. I still haven't found a forum that does this well and it makes it really hard to integrate (like YAF requires a ton of hack to style and match your website completely)
- Use external tables to store forum data and make sure to use MemberShipProvider apis to make it easy to integrate
- Ship with boost support and a really simple semantic design. Make sure that *no* - absolutely *NO* - markup is in a codebehind file. Generating views using XsltExtensions is the way to go forward
- Focus on five features for the first release. Here's my list for inspiration:
1) all handling of registrations is done by Membership Providers = we don't have to think about that
2) Create a datamodel and simple businesslayer to store forum posts threaded (even though they might be shown not threaded which is the current trend). Use umbraco nodes to handle forums, but store posts in own tables, just referencing the main forums. That'll make it really easy for administrators to use umbraco to add new forums (like we have Xslt, Jobs, Misc) and also support subforums via the umbraco UI.
3) Notifications is what makes forum activity. Add stable support for RSS and mails on both forum and post level
4) Stats is what can encourage forum activity. Make sure that it's easy to get lists of most active posters, movers and shakers. You don't really need to include a lot of lists, but good support for getting the data.
5) Clean and beautiful design with (almost) no graphics. People will rarely want to use forum4umbraco for a stand alone forum. They'll want to integrate the forum on a site. Therefore make the design super simple and easy to style. Don't have silly and ugly emoticons and buttons for blogs, im, etc. like YAF does.
Wheew. If you guys manage something like above, I'll love you forever ;-)
Can't wait to see what you come up with!
/n
Jeeeez, did I really start this :-)
Founder of the Umbraco project
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Rank: Umbracoholic
Joined: 3/17/2008
Posts: 1,192
Location: Nyborg, Denmark
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Complementing above here's what I don't think is important for a v1:
- Moderation. This is often over prioritized, but it's *very* rarely needed and in a version 1 you can always (even though it might be difficult for admins) remove a post from a db. To put this in perspective I've removed six posts on this forum the past three years. That's six out of 26,853 posts or 0.02%. And that's for a forum that's open and where anyone can register. Even if the figures was closer to 1% it doesn't justify (too much) focus
- Richtext editing. This simply doesn't make any sense in a forum. Period.
- Emoticons. I never liked them and my previous experience is that they tend to disturb more than they benefit. After all, most people know what : - ) does and don't need to see an ugly yellow head
Jeeeez, did I really start this :-)
Founder of the Umbraco project
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Rank: Fanatic
Joined: 7/21/2006
Posts: 346
Location: Salerno - Italy
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I agree.
Red Consulting s.a.s - Umbraco from v1.0 Italian Language File Traslator
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Rank: Umbracoholic
Joined: 9/27/2007
Posts: 1,874
Location: Belgium
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Quote:- first of all go google - release often and iterate. You don't have anything until you shipped Agree totally. That is why we'll be releasing early and often, to get feedback and change plans/priortities when required. Shouldn't software always be released/developed this way? At least, that is my point of view. Quote:- Make separation of logic and presentation a #1 feature. Can't agree more. It's a primary focus of the project. Don't want to clutter those things. Quote:- Use external tables to store forum data and make sure to use MemberShipProvider apis to make it easy to integrate Really good point. Appreciate this feedback! Quote:- Focus on five features for the first release. Here's my list for inspiration... Great, thanks for your list and feedback. After all, good software projects are driven by users and their expectations/needs. We're listening...
level 1 & 2 certified - umbraco MVP 2008/2009 - umbraco blog at netaddicts.be - working on an integrated forum4umbraco
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Rank: Umbracoholic
Joined: 9/27/2007
Posts: 1,874
Location: Belgium
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What part do you agree on? We'd love your feedback as well. Regards, /Dirk
level 1 & 2 certified - umbraco MVP 2008/2009 - umbraco blog at netaddicts.be - working on an integrated forum4umbraco
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Rank: Umbracoholic
Joined: 3/17/2008
Posts: 1,192
Location: Nyborg, Denmark
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Dirk wrote:
Agree totally. That is why we'll be releasing early and often, to get feedback and change plans/priortities when required. Shouldn't software always be released/developed this way? At least, that is my point of view.
It's easier said than done. It requires a lot of discipline not to keep including minor features as you move on. Especially as you get inspired while you develop, so the things you planned weeks/months before you started are (likely) not the same as you really wish to ship when they're done. Which is natural, as you've learned something along the way that can make your app even better, but the big challenge is to appreciate knowing that it'll be better in NEXT version, rather than keep postponing. At least that's one of the things I'm really horrible at doing :) /n
Jeeeez, did I really start this :-) Founder of the Umbraco project
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Rank: Umbracoholic
Joined: 9/27/2007
Posts: 1,874
Location: Belgium
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hartvig wrote:
It's easier said than done. It requires a lot of discipline not to keep including minor features as you move on. Especially as you get inspired while you develop, so the things you planned weeks/months before you started are (likely) not the same as you really wish to ship when they're done. Which is natural, as you've learned something along the way that can make your app even better, but the big challenge is to appreciate knowing that it'll be better in NEXT version, rather than keep postponing. At least that's one of the things I'm really horrible at doing :)
Yep, right again. I haven't experienced this very often as I mostly develop software for 'other' people. My point here is, as I'm not really benefiting from the software, I can step backwards much more easy than you guys can. I might be a challenge for us as a team as well, as we move on with the project. Greetz, /Dirk
level 1 & 2 certified - umbraco MVP 2008/2009 - umbraco blog at netaddicts.be - working on an integrated forum4umbraco
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Rank: Devotee
Joined: 8/9/2008
Posts: 66
Location: Houston, Texas
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Thanks for your feedbacks - because this forum is not for us - but for the whole Umbraco community as whole. So this is why feedbacks from the community is essential to us. But we planned on the initial release is to start up with some smaller features - required stuff before we go into the bigger fish. So basically start off with the basics then grow from there. But as indicated community input is essential - even though we may not be able to "PLEASE" everyone but we would try to accommodate what the community would like. So thanks for the input - and keep them coming. :)
Billy Koch http://www.twitter.com/billy_koch
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Rank: Umbracoholic
Joined: 9/8/2006
Posts: 2,020
Location: MA, USA; Cambridge, UK
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This is really fantastic, guys! I'm in complete agreement with all the Niels has said. From my own experience I'll reiterate that feature creep is deadly and will stop a project. Pick a set of features and then release that set. As you develop and get ideas write them down (Backpack, anyone?) and IGNORE THEM until you've released the current version. THEN you can go back and prioritize the list of ideas, pick a few for the next version, and release that version. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. I can't tell you how many times I have not released XSLTsearch or ImageGen (small apps compared to what you're working on) because of this problem. I know what I should do... I just get caught up in "one more small thing" and before I've fully tested and released it... I add one more small thing for a user. Be very careful in this regard. It is very hard to do individually, harder as a team. Talk as a team to come up with how you're going to handle the person who is even willing to pay you to add a feature that isn't on your list for the current version. More than the "perfect" forum, we'd all love to have "a" forum. If that forum gets better and better... well, you can imagine how wow'd we be! Also... you might consider the first version (or three) as free but perhaps the more advanced versions might be for pay. The community is happy to pay for solid solutions if they work well and have some docs and some form of (even limited) support. cheers, doug.
MVP 2007-2009 - Percipient Studios - Percipient Blog
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Rank: Devotee
Joined: 8/31/2007
Posts: 65
Location: Utrecht NL
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Great project!
Agree with all remarks especially keeping markup minimal and adjustable via xslt , and seperate logic, markup and content.
What I am missing in the top 5 feature ideas is: forum management/moderation nicely integrated in the Umbraco UI. I am thinking of my clients using the umbraco UI, which they are familiar with, including tree structure, tabs etc. Non-advanced users should see no difference with normal Umbraco content exept for some special options, if possible.
Other thing that would be important for me is nice hierarchical url's like normal Umbraco content, a bit better then the current yaf_blahblah urls' in this forum.
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Rank: Umbracoholic
Joined: 9/27/2007
Posts: 1,874
Location: Belgium
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Hi Arjan, Many thanks for your feedback. Suggestions are now on our list as well. Quote:Other thing that would be important for me is nice hierarchical url's like normal Umbraco content, a bit better then the current yaf_blahblah urls' in this forum. Ok, I've had the same ideas, also don't like those url's bloated with multiple querystring params. Bedankt, /Dirk
level 1 & 2 certified - umbraco MVP 2008/2009 - umbraco blog at netaddicts.be - working on an integrated forum4umbraco
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Rank: Newbie
Joined: 9/3/2008
Posts: 17
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On position 1-10 on my feature list is mail2forum. I have never understood why forums can't be configured ro send me the actual reply to my posting rather than a link to it - and allow me to reply to it (inserted into the right thread on the forum of course).
There are some problematic aspects if using it in large public forums, but most of them can be addressed in a satisfactory way.
Good luck with the project!
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Rank: Umbracoholic
Joined: 3/17/2008
Posts: 1,192
Location: Nyborg, Denmark
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With you 100% on the full post in mail, but I don't agree with the reply-to as a main feature. That's a lot of complexity with that (most relates to sync'en multiple sources, but also having stable timers that monitor email) and there's plenty of mailing list systems already available.
Focus on creating a forum, not a mailing list, guys :-)
/n
Jeeeez, did I really start this :-)
Founder of the Umbraco project
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Rank: Umbracoholic
Joined: 9/27/2007
Posts: 1,874
Location: Belgium
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JonasB wrote:On position 1-10 on my feature list is mail2forum. I have never understood why forums can't be configured ro send me the actual reply to my posting rather than a link to it - and allow me to reply to it (inserted into the right thread on the forum of course). Feature is put on list... at the bottom. Thanks for your input. Greetz, /Dirk
level 1 & 2 certified - umbraco MVP 2008/2009 - umbraco blog at netaddicts.be - working on an integrated forum4umbraco
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Rank: Newbie
Joined: 9/3/2008
Posts: 17
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hartvig wrote:With you 100% on the full post in mail, but I don't agree with the reply-to as a main feature. That's a lot of complexity with that (most relates to sync'en multiple sources, but also having stable timers that monitor email) and there's plenty of mailing list systems already available. To me, mailing lists and forums are just two different UIs for accessing the same kind of information. Depending on factors like how active you are, you want different ways of accessing it. Rather than creating yet another anonymous piece of forum software, I think it would be interesting to add something others don't have. People who have been using mail2forum with phpbb v2 are avoiding upgrading to v3 because the plugin isn't compatible with it yet... Anyway, I'm not even using umbraco, so I'll shut up 
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Rank: Fanatic
Joined: 4/3/2008
Posts: 269
Location: The Netherlands
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Hi JonasB, Quote:Rather than creating yet another anonymous piece of forum software, I think it would be interesting to add something others don't have. People who have been using mail2forum with phpbb v2 are avoiding upgrading to v3 because the plugin isn't compatible with it yet... Our main focus is to get V1 out of the door, also we are not creating another anonymous piece of Forum, we are creating a Forum specialized for Umbraco. So the Mail2Forum feature... I don't know. I like the 100% Post in the mail Idea.. Thanks for your input, Richard
level 2 certified - Umbraco development - Soeteman SoftwareImport data into Umbraco? Consider using UmbImport
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Rank: Newbie
Joined: 9/3/2008
Posts: 17
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rsoeteman wrote:Our main focus is to get V1 out of the door, also we are not creating another anonymous piece of Forum, we are creating a Forum specialized for Umbraco. If you are creating an architecture where Umbraco integration comes in the form of a plugin rather than at the core of the system (so it can also function as a standalone or together with other systems) I'd be happy to handle the mail2forum functionality myself as a plugin. Is there a document with the proposed architecture somewhere? Thanks, Jonas
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Rank: Devotee
Joined: 8/9/2008
Posts: 66
Location: Houston, Texas
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That at this time - as we indicated we are currently in the design phase of this. So this is why we set the announcement to the community to see what the community would like to see and get feedbacks. Because this will be a product hopefully that the Umbraco community will come to embrace and it would be implemented amongst other Umbraco sites and etc. And we are welcoming those who would like to be a part of this.
Billy Koch http://www.twitter.com/billy_koch
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Rank: Newbie
Joined: 9/3/2008
Posts: 17
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I could absolutely help out on some parts - again, provided that it's not exclusively an umbraco-specific solution, and that I like the architecture. I'll check in here from time to time to see how it's coming along!
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